Well, it is not news that competing companies are usualy looking at each other to see what the other guy is doing, but would it also apply to retail soakers. Or at least to a degree that would actualy influence their design. And would they know what the other brand is up to before its officialy out yet on the market?
Post your view/conspiracy theory.


The way I see it, while most companies don't like to admit it, I do suspect that each brand has their "contacts" that would leak a certain information about the competitors products developing stages. If you think that PS3's "Six axes" had no influence from the Wii's Nunchuck controller, then you are overly trustfull. Why would it be different with soakers? WHile its not necessarly plagorism of ideas, the little "spy games" would serve as knowing where the new years retail standard would be in order not to look crappy compared to the competition, yet at the same time not to go overboard with production costs. The similarity of WW, SS and Six Flag models or the odd fact that WW and SS don't realy outdoo each other would suport my "crazy/jaded" theory. From a perticular angle, the soaker retail market seems almost like a "guild" where companie's balanced competition result in a standardized quality that does not want to take risks. More of an unofficial agreed compromise between the companies instead of a healty competition to push the boundaries. Would it be any suprise that the fan boy camps are split in the middle when it comes to Flash Floods and Blazers?

Now what I am wondering is, if WW has their own performance model version of the SS Hydroblitz.

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What I was thinking is SS Based the Hydroblitz off of the Scorpion. If it really uses a motorized pump, then they combined that with what seems to be a FF nozzle, to get the best of both worlds.

I think everybody knew the Wii would have Nunchuck controllers. It was the whole premise of the game system.

Obviously the two water warfare companies are influenced by each other, but they don't have to be in a conspiracy. It's definitely possible that the Hydroblitz is a battery-operated gun. But I doubt it has a FF nozzle, just a high-volume nozzle. But it's 8.71 pounds empty and clumsy...

I doubt BBT has their own version. They'd be crazy to do so, at least without seeing how well this one sells this year.

The other thing is that people aren't buying certain guns because of the performance. You can't really guess how good any gun is if you haven't read a review. You look at the size, the ads, the colors, the nozzles...things like that.

BBT could make their version of the Hydroblitz this year. Have you seen supersoaker's price on it? It has to be a good gun with that price. BBT would sell more of it if they release a cheaper version. It's a risky move, but if it works, SS will have to release something really good next year.

<!--QuoteBegin-mr. dude+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mr. dude)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It has to be a good gun with that price.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so. The MXL was $50, and it was simply terrible. On the other hand, nearly everybody wanted it.

Back then the MXL wasn't that great, but nowdays it would tear competitors a new one even for $50. 1 MXL or 2 FFs/Blazers for the same price? Hmmm, not a hard decision.

With the Buzz Bee version of the hydroblitz I didn't realy mean a conceptual copy, but more like a performance equal. (But it might be a copy, I don't know.) Something that will split users right in the middle similar when talking about the Flash Flood versus Blazer.

One thing is that Buzz bee Toys and Hasbro are perfectly able to build something that would be twice or three times the performance of their usual models(still meeting child safety guidelines) which would crush the current competitions standard. However they don't go for it. Naturaly profit is the reason i assume, but then again if the competition would get crushed, would'nt that be profit aswell?
here is one thing that makes me suspicious: retailers determine sizes. yet we have seen CPS 4100 reissues, max-D Double packs and Monster rockets that would suggest that that retailers are abit more flexible. Have I also mentioned the CPS1500 sized cheap soakers at Canadian tire and 2 buck stores? I work at retail, and interesting thing with shelf space, its fully customisable by stocking associates. Its only in extreme cases that manegement starts to step in and complains(like with 1 meter long MXLs and MXs.) Other than that, retail sells what CEOs decide is sellable. And big suits don't usualy know much about the various products and their physical sizes. Which means that size is mainly determined by manufacturer's accountants of what makes the best "build cheap sell high product".

"Dude" (sorry for the bad pun), the gun has to be either really large, since the MXL was $50 and it was huge. It might just be a gun that they *think* everyone will love, so they jack up the price on it


The thing is, Buzz Bee has not been known to have two seperate nozzles, but Super Soaker cannot get enough of them.
Examples of Super Soakers-FF, Arctic Blast (coming this year), Hydroblitz (coming this year)
Examples of Water Warriors-none with 2 triggers (not counting the pressure gauge trigger)
Super Soaker is known for output, but Water Warriors is known for the 5 pump system and shoot as fast as you can pump (Splat Blaster and one of BBT's nerf guns). BBT also has the motorized pump. If Buzz Bee could make the pump quiet, but still motorized, then they could conquer the water warfare market.

Vincent would say that they'd go competitive here...and I'd agree. Since this is a free market, they have a lot to gain from making a better product. People will pay more if they think it's worth it.

But still, what makes people think something is worth it? They don't know about the performance...just the size, the looks, etc.

<!--QuoteBegin-CROC+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CROC)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The thing is, Buzz Bee has not been known to have two seperate nozzles, but Super Soaker cannot get enough of them.
Examples of Super Soakers-FF, Arctic Blast (coming this year), Hydroblitz (coming this year)
Examples of Water Warriors-none with 2 triggers (not counting the pressure gauge trigger)
Super Soaker is known for output, but Water Warriors is known for the 5 pump system and shoot as fast as you can pump (Splat Blaster and one of BBT's nerf guns). BBT also has the motorized pump. If Buzz Bee could make the pump quiet, but still motorized, then they could conquer the water warfare market.
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We have yet to see how the Hydroblitz performs, but I see your point. Interesting conclusion about the different tendencies of each company. However, I wouldn't say that a quiet electric soaker would revolutionize the market--not everybody wants a heavy, electricity-hogging soaker. And nobody can predict the noise when they see the soaker in the store.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is, Buzz Bee has not been known to have two seperate nozzles, but Super Soaker cannot get enough of them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have always seens the Hasbro 2 nozzle+2trigger feature as a different version of the traditional nozzle slector. 2 nozzle+2 triggers as mainstream was originaly introduced by SPEEDLOADER, exept that Wild Water Weapons had it more superior by being able to use both nozzles interchangably or at the same time fluently with no problems. That and 3 litre PCs (SPEEDLOAFDER sure would kick ass nowdays). With Hasbro the 2 nozzle system is more of a switcheru thing as a nozzle slector alternative. So the concept is more cosmetic. I assume 2 nozzle with 2 triggers look more impressive to the average Joe rather than a nozzle selector.

My point is, since the Hydroblitz seems to be an oversized Flash Flood, will Buzz bee Toys counter with an oversized Blazer that will be generaly on par with Hasbro's flagship, as it was usualy in the past. Both companies don't realy seem to outdo each other. While that is still "competition", its not very agressive competition.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Buzz Bee could make the pump quiet, but still motorized, then they could conquer the water warfare market.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And then Hasbro would follow suit, and soon every gun would have a motorized pump. A good thing to some, but for me, worst day in soaking retail possible. I'd personally rather have the companies release no guns at all than all with motor pumps. That would be a rant longer than everything I've ever typed combined. Hey, before you know it, the guns will be able to automatically fire themselves as well! All you'll need to do is simply stand there and hold the thing in the air!

As for BBT's line and what might be in it, my mouth is shut.

If Buzz Bee could make a new pre-charger that is bigger than their other ones or is just more powerful and can shoot farther than the others, they would be the dominant company. The Hydroblitz is advertising that it can shoot 35 ft. Buzz Bee could make a pre charger that shoots 50-60 feet if they wanted to.

Prechargers really aren't that spectacular--a conclusion I've taken time to reach. All they do is have different volumes, dropoff, and pressures from what you'd find in a conventional air pressure gun. Constant pressure blows precharging out of the water.

The pre-charging designs are still at their infancy, IMO. They just haven't been used to their true potential which is theoretically higher than that of a rubber/mechanical system. Thing is, within the same area, one can theoretically push in much more pressure (thus having much more available force) using a pre-charge system than using stronger/more elastic bladders. Additionally, well-design pre-charger systems would have basically no dead-volume, basically impossible to do with any sort of rubber tubing though potentially possible to do with a spring-based system. The problem with pre-chargers is pumping in water against the increased pressure. If the PC cannot be loaded without too much effort, the system is not practical. I think a lot more, though, can be done with the pre-charger system and keep things functional so time will tell whether advances in that tech continue.

As for the whole spying business, I'm sure rival companies keep an eye out on what the other is making, but good ol' patents keep companies from pushing out identical products. That said, I don't believe there is any particular conspiracy to keep products "crappy" (from a ZOCCOZ point of view). Any conspiracy believed here is simple all in the mind of those wanting there to be some sort of conspiracy as opposed to the sad current reality of a "bear-ish" market when it comes to soaker sales in general.

B)

I don't want to get into technical stuff here, but...

The maximum pressure on any air pressure gun--Precharger or not--is limited by the maximum pump force you can apply. Different volumes, precharging, etc. only determines how much you have to pump before you hit that limit. The pressure will never be constant.

After my analysis, I can only say that Prechargers waste space. By increasing the moles of air inside the PC, you're reducing the volume you can fill before hitting the maximum pressure. It's pretty confusing.

'tis true; the maximum pressure you can push into a soaker is how much you can pump it. However, add in a possibility of using a motorized or cantilever pumps and one can achieve higher pressures within the PC, thus allowing for higher forces than can be done easily with a rubber bladder. Rubber bladders have much more material stress issues due to all the expansion and contraction occurring during firing. I can't say the same about spring-based systems, though, as spring tensions can be made fairly strong if needed. That said, for hand-pumped soakers, constant pressure systems still probably rule in general. However, pre-charged air pressure systems should be able to be made to perform better than non-precharged air pressure blasters. I understand your point about air pre-pumped, though. However, pre-charging is to make the lowest amount of pressure experienced by the water to be set higher than that of non-pre-charged soakers; thus, the last amount of water exiting the PC will still be pushed out by a good amount of force. Amount pumped before hitting max pressure can be increased by increasing the diameter of the piston system. The current problem, I think, of increasing diameter is the problem of the separating piston losing seal during movement.

B)